forfour.co.uk
Forum => General Smart Chat => Topic started by: cheapshots on February 27, 2017, 12:49:45 PM
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Hi all,
I've been doing lots of reading around the 454 (thanks for the helpful posts), but wanted your thoughts on my first potential purchase of a smart car!
Forfour 454 1.3 Pulse, 2005 petrol, 33k mileage, auto, 2 owners.
It looks like the car was purchased by a mechanic/garage from the previous owner. The garage tell me it's just passed the MOT and they have changed the aux belt, front & rear brake pads and serviced the car. No previous service history and only 1 set of keys.
I must say I'm a little sceptical about buying a car from a mechanic /garage! I read through the buying guide sticky on here but wondered how you felt about a 12 year old car with no service history.... Thanks :D
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Hey there, welcome to the forum!
With no service history, it is always going to be a gamble (and even with to be honest) so if in doubt, take your own mechanic with you. Any (and I stress any, even if it is a garage) seller worth their salt will always want to prove that their goods are up to scrutiny. With that said, is the garage reputable (internet reviews etc)? If so, that might help support the idea that they really have done the work.
1 key is a bit of a worry mind as if that breaks (transponder coding loss etc), you are in trouble.
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Thanks.... I'll have a look at the car on Saturday, I won't have a mechanic with me though :(
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there is a stunning 1.3 coming up for sale soon....
http://www.forfour.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5807.0
but its manual
JJ
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33k miles ! That is low....and that can be a good or a bad thing.
Ocracoke is correct when he says a service history cannot
always be taken as a sign that it has been serviced well/properly.
If there is no service manual, then possibly a replacement
duplicate can be sourced from MB/Smart...if it was serviced by
an MB/Smart dealer.
And yes, having just one key can be a problem.
It's always best to have 2 keys. A replacement has to be ordered
from Germany, and then coded to the car. There are already some
threads/posts on the forum about keys etc....so have a read.
(In the Electrics in General section). A 'ball park' figure for the new
key [with the electronic key fob] is about £100, and coding if done
by a Smart independant is about £40..so say around £150 ish.
Oh, and by the way...it is not an 'auto' in the way one usually knows
an auto 'fluid' tyep transmission. It's an AMT (Automated Manual Transmission)...
it has no clutch pedal, but it does have a clutch that is operated
electronically via a ECU that monitors throttle position, engine speed,
and the speed of the car, as well as a number of other things to work
out when to change gear and what gear to be in. It has kickdown like
the usual auto you may know. It is also to drive it 'manually', using
the selector to change up and down gears.
The AMT needs to be adjusted via an MB Star diagnostics machine
every year when the car is serviced & checked over by the same
Star diagnostic machine...and only an MB/Smart dealer or Smart
authorised independant will have a genuine MB/Star machine, so
if the garage is not one of those, it won't have been serviced properly.
PS. the owners handbook, service manual, audio booklet etc
SHOULD be in the 'kick panel' pocket in the drivers footwell.
Most non Smart garages don't/won't even know that !
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Thanks for the detailed response. Yes 33k is very low.... I'm after a reliable run around and this seems to tick all the boxes. I'll be viewing the car on Saturday, I might be a permanent member of this forum very soon!
P.S I'm going to call MB/Smart and ask if they have a record of the car being serviced at all, maybe they can help shed some light. Cheers.
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Thanks for all your help guys. I am now a newbie smart owner. This is the first semi-auto car I have driven and I must say it does take some getting used to. I find myself preferring to change gears 'manually' instead of leaving it in A.
Also I experience a known issue - when shifting from A to R, I sometimes get the dreaded '0'. However, I read that if you shift from A > R without quickly (i.e not stopping in N) then it's fine, which is true in my case.
Something strange happened yesterday, I was driving the car for about 3 hours (motorway and in-town) and it was fine. However I noticed a few things:
1) When changing from A>R, R>A, A>N etc.. you can hear a very slight crunch/clunk as the gear engages. The sort of sound you'd hear when putting an older manual car in reverse gear too quickly. Is this normal?
2) The car was navigating speed bumps fine, however towards the end of the day, whilst navigating the same speed bumps at the same speed and angle, with the same load, I heard a lour metal scrapping noise as the car was coming down from the speed bump. It sounded like the exhaust was scrapping the speed bump. This morning I checked the tyres and the underside of the car (without a jack) it was too difficult to see but in general it all looked fine, i.e nothing was hanging down. I then took it for a drive over the same speed bumps - and the sound was gone.
3) The car has had a service (oil and filters), replacement pads and replacement aux belt, is there anything else I should service considering it's had very little service history before this ? (last documented service was at 13,000k)
Thanks :)
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Welcome to ForFour ownership! ;D
To address your questions directly:
1. That is most likely the clutch actuator you can hear. The cars automatic gearbox is not a traditional auto with a fluid and a torque converter but is essentially a manual with a automatic clutch, which uses a mechanical actuator to release/engage the clutch. This is called a AMT (automated manual transmission). The noise you are hearing is most likely that.
2. Sounds like it could be the middle section of the exhaust. I'd advise jacking the car up anyway (there is a suitable jack in the boot, under the floor).
3. Given the list stated already and the mileage, I'd possibly consider changing the spark plugs as well. Does the last documented service show this as an item? Smarts are traditionally serviced by letters, so A (a minor service) and B (a major service) so from the description, it sounds like a A service is done.
I'd also note that the car as a creep function, which you've probably noticed. For me, the creep function is fine but it makes parallel parking a bit of a faff because it seems to go very quickly in 1st or Reverse and requires a bit of brake work to not collide with my neighbours cars.
As a 1.3 AMT owner, I can advise that using A around town is "okkkk" but it is fairly dim witted and much, much, much better on the motorway. Kickdown is fantastically addictive and once you sail past 3400rpm, the valve timing changes and becomes more alive sounding. Conversely, around town, I can toddle along in 6th gear at 30mph whilst in manual mode, very quiet. ;) I'd also advise leaving the car in gear when stationary at lights (put the handbrake on, lest ye fall foul of the creep) and in R when switched off.
One final thing - as noted by CrazyG, the AMT gearbox + clutch actuator in the ForFour needs to be retaught every year (so every major service) which can only be achieved with a STAR machine. S2Smarts in Watford are around your way (though I confess, I don't know exactly how far away that is for you but it is worth the trip) so it may be worth taking it there for that.
The engine itself is fanatically reliable but the actuator can be problematic though given the mileage, I suspect you'll be OK for a while yet. To increase your chances of not having actuator failure, when you do get the actuator retaught, I'd also ask S2Smarts to lubricate the actuator as well but I don't believe this is a yearly thing (once every 2 years maybe?). Otherwise, the car itself is simple enough to work on.
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Thanks so much Ocracoke.
I was thinking the same thing RE the spark plugs, I'm not sure when / if they were changed. I'll have a look at the service booklet again tonight to see what the previous service was.
I'm not a big fan of in-town driving in A either. This will probably sound very silly but what is kickdown ?!
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Good to see you took the plunge and got yourself a ForFour.
My daughter, my 'ex', and I all prefer to drive our AMT's in 'manual'
rather than use the 'A' setting...that is unless I'm stuck in a traffic
crawl or feeling particularly lazy or worn out. We have all found that
the AMT 'hangs on' to gears too long and often could go into a higher
gear rather than rev away (and drinkin fuel) in a lower gear.
However, overall the AMT works perfectly...if one forgives the odd
reverse selection crunch that one sometimes gets.
As for the 'graunch' that you heard from speed humps...
that will more than likely be the lip spoiler under the front of the
engine undertray; or 'anti-noise capsule' as it's called by MB/Smart;
hitting the ground when the suspension of the car compresses.
Either that or the mid section of the exhaust. Next time you jack
the car up, have a check of that and you should find the under edge
of that lip spoiler is all rough n gouged and scored. No big deal....
just go over the bumps slower !
And finally...
If the service history you can find/see is that 'sparce', and it has only
had oil, filters (and possibly the plugs)changed, then it is missing the
one vital thing that an AMT really MUST have...a yearly session on a
Star diagnostic machine to have the clutch retaught and perhaps the
gear positions 'confirmed' with the gear sensors...as well as the
clutch actuator manually set up before all that. This really IS essential
to ensure that the AMT works/operates more or less faultlessly.
An MB dealer will charge you £120 for the 'privilige' of plugging the
Star into your car, and then £120 per hour or part thereof to then
do anything extra on top of that ! So..what to do ?
As you're in W.London, then there are within easy distance of you
at least 2 if not 3 Smart independant specialists who could do what
is required for a lot less than an MB dealer would charge you.
S2smarts, (25 mins away up the M25) based between Rickmansworth & Watford.
Smart Car Specialists, (45mins away down the M25) based in Guildford.
Smart Clinic, (40mins away) based near Harrow Weald.
[Estimated times, based on non rush hour clear roads]
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'Kickdown' is where one plants one's foot to the floor on the accelerator
and the car then automatically changes down to the next suitable gear.
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I've booked the car in for another service with S2 Smarts today at 3pm which is only 25mins away from me. Thanks for your help. Will keep you posted about the scrapping noise.
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'Kickdown' is where one plants one's foot to the floor on the accelerator
and the car then automatically changes down to the next suitable gear.
Note that because of the close ratios in the AMT gearbox, this can mean it drops more than 1 gear. On the motorway, for example, I find that if suitably pushed, the car will drop 2 or even 3 gears though most likely the former.
S2Smarts do know what they are doing, so take it there with confidence and have fun looking around. ;)
As a side note, there is a general meetup of Smarts at the Ace Cafe on the 1st of April between 11am and 4pm where I know at least two 454 ForFours are going to be there (mine included - details here (http://www.forfour.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5796)).
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My 454 needs some TLC (inside and out), I'd be too ashamed to attend Ace cafe if she isn't up to scratch! I'll see what I can do 8)
What do you guys think of the price I paid? (£1650). Front bumper has some light damage around wheel arches, the usual stuff you'd expect from a 12 year old car on the rest of the body. Two tyres will need changing in about 6 months. Inside, the drivers seat is slightly worn and the ceiling needs a thorough clean but apart from that it's 'good' condition inside.
2005 33k, hardly any service history, 2 owners, drives fine.
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First time I attended Ace Cafe in my ForFour, it was a bit of a shed (and the interior still is if truth be told :P). The guy who is coming with me in his ForFour has a ripped seat bolster and again, plenty of scratches and such. Ace Cafe isn't a formal event, it is just a great gathering of like minded folks so I wouldn't feel ashamed. Put it this way, at one point, all of the other cars will have been in the same boat. :P
The price is fine. I paid £1200 for mine last January for a car with 75k miles at the time but a fairly comprehensive service history. The bodywork had scuffs all over as does the interior but I bought mine in the knowledge that I was going to change the panel colour anyway. The wheels were corroded and the tyres required changing in 3 months (though that may have something to do with my enthusiastic driving style).
With regards to the light damage around the wheel arches, those plastic panels do come off so if you feel the need to change the panels, the entire thing can be replaced (such things can be found on eBay). However, if it is just a deep parking scuff, I'd be tempted to get some touch up paint and fill it in so it looks fine (I coloured mine in with a silver Sharpie, made a world of difference).
Of course, since then, I've ploughed waayyyy more into mine since then just on the mods/upgrades alone, I was just pleased to find a ForFour with a grey tridion frame with a AMT gearbox.
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Terrible news guys, my wife took the car to the lovely people at S2Smart (where she even met Crazy G) and they found the following:
1. car has signs of large impact N/S rear
2. O/S rear wheel bearing rumbling
3. rear axle showing signs of wear on bushes
4. both tyres showing signs of ageing
5. exhaust unusually low
6. all disc lipped
Thank god I paid by credit card, I'm now drafting a letter to the seller requesting my money back plus costs and compensation. I'm also going to speak to the card company about a refund under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act.
Crazy G kindly took pictures for me (see attached), they even spray painted the damaged metal frame in black so as to cover it up :(
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??? Oof... :'( So sorry to see this. Was/is there any record of the impact from a HPI check (i.e was it a Category C/D)?
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HPI was completely clear. They must have done a cowboy job outside of insurance.
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was this a garage i assume? :(
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the-second-hand--car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights
this may help but sounds like you know what you are doing already
JJ
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Thanks for the link. Yes it was a garage and yes I will be excersising all my rights!
For those that are interested the seller admitted (via email) that he covered the twisted metal frame with under seal to prevent corrosion, he stated he is an honest seller. I wonder why he did not mention this when I asked if the car has ever been in an accident .... will keep you all updated.
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I've already replied via PM to the owner my opinion on the car
and a 'rough' guesstimate' on what it could cost to fix everything.
TBH, it really depends on whether one would be happy to have/keep
it after it has been fixed.
1/ The rear impact damage in my eyes is not really a 'show stopper',
and the rest could be fixed relatively cheaply...if one could
& did do a fair bit oneself, but if you're not mechanically inclined
then it would cost to get someone else to do the bits.
2/ Exhaust...get a quote from a good exhaust place (not KiwkFit)
for a 1.3 Colt, 2005, 5 door...or...buy the parts on ebay
from upwards of around £195 (incl catalytic converter)
and find someone to remove the old and fit the new system.
3/ Tyres are easy and cheap to source...www.blackcircles.com
4/ Rear wheel bearing...not that much to buy...or fix...or expensive to
have it replaced.
5/ Discs and pads..again, bargains can be found on ebay....as I found
out when I got Ferodo one's for my daughters AND my ex wifes
ForFour's quite recently. I think about £65 for the fronts. I did them,
but if you paid someone to do it...1 hour to do them, so say £70 or
so labour cost.
6/ Rear axle bushes...They're not completely knackered...yet, and as
the car currently has an MoT, then I would be inclined to leave
having the beam axle replaced till near the time of the next MoT.
PS: you cannot get new bushes from MB/Smart. You have to buy
the rear beam axle with the new bushes in it. You can however
get 'aftermarket' replacement poly bushes. They are harder
and will transmit more road noise, but they take a lot of work
to fit, and at £120 a pair + 3 to 4hrs labour to remove the old
bushes and fit the new poly bushes works out just as expensive
or maybe more so than getting a new rear beam axle from
MB/Smart and having it fitted !
So there you have it.....
It's worth arguing for a refund of a lump sum of something close to £800
to cover the items (and labour cost) that need fixing and then getting it
all done...OR go for a total complete refund.
It really is down to the individual...and what they'll be happiest with.
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Update: I spoke to the seller just now. To be fair to him, he was concerned about the situation too and agreed that he should have told me about the damage, especially because I directly asked "has it been involved in any accidents"
Here's what I'm requesting he refunds:
1) Car £1700
2) Service £200
3) Compensate me £100 for fuel and time (dealer is 60 miles away one-way)
He was accepting of the fact that the car can be refunded, we talked a little about the other costs, I think he'll agree to pay. I'm reasonable and we both agreed that for a 12 year old car certain things are to be expected and spending a couple of hundred pounds would be acceptable.
So, the documented damage is:
1. Car has signs of large impact N/S rear - can't fix this however does reduce the cars value
2. All disc lipped - I will change at my cost
3. Both tyres showing signs of ageing - I will change at my cost
4. O/S rear wheel bearing rumbling - Garage to fix
5. Rear axle showing signs of wear on bushes - Garage to fix
6. Exhaust unusually low - Garage to replace the whole exhaust including the cat
Do you think the above is fair ? Also, do you think it's fair for me to request a figure of £700 from the seller?
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hmmm - are you not now treading in a grey area??
you can return the car for a refund for no being as sold but a garage does not have to sell a car fully serviced with new brakes and all suspension components replaced? thats all part of the sale discussions.
this is the sort of thing a main dealer would maybe sort on a 3 year old car but not an independent car sales on a 12yr old car?
i would think the only thing you can get some money back from is the damage that was undisclosed and that you specifically asked about.
you can't get the £ back to repair, just the difference in value. and as the damage is minimal so not deemed needed to be repaired and its been treated you may want some off but on the open market this prob only drops the price a few hundred ££
i personally think that asking for almost 50% off the car is too much as even as it stands, it's not worth that little
JJ
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TBH it's not a 'large impact N/S rear'...I would say minor.
As JJ says...a service is not to be expected as part of any sale,
and replacement of brakes only necessary if it had failed an MoT.
The 2 biggest things I would push for are..
1/ to get the rear axle beam replaced. That has to come from MB/Smart,
and is the most expensive to replace.
It may well have passed an MoT, but seeing the amount of movement
in the bushes for myself I doubt any other test station would pass it
at this moment in time'.
2/ have the exhaust fixed. They may just get away with new front cross
member mounting rubbers and replacing the centre section as that is
the part that is sagging and bowed. However, I think there is a very
good possibility that the rest may end up needing to be replaced
when they try to separate the system due to the ondition/age of it all.
That will be their problem if that happens.
Really, if you want to haggle over what you can get, then anything
'extra' to the 2 as above is a bonus...but not necessarily to be expected
for/on a 12year old car, so don't ask for £700 in addition to any repairs
as that I think that is going a bit far. See what he is prepared to do,
but in the end you could both just disagree and call a halt to any further
negotiation and demand a full refund.
Any costs outside that, such as your time and fuel is something that
I am not au fait with to say yes you can or no you can't claim for.
Can anyone else advise on that side of things ?
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Thanks very much for the helpful comments. The seller has responded to me with a choice of:
1) Full refund of the car (I must return it to him, he's 60miles away) but no refund of the £200 service or any compensation for that matter
2) He will send me the full exhaust (with cat) and bearings in the post (he states it will cost him £255 + VAT + postage)
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so take the £350 he would be spending on parts
get a nice stainless exhaust system guaranteed for life
wheel bearing can wait ;)
at least you now know all the probs with the car (which you wouldn't if you returned it and bought another)
in the end, its a 12yr old car - i shiver at the thought of buying a 12yr old fiesta
JJ
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Settled for £300 in the end. I did not have it in me to fight for more plus I think it's almost a fair compromise.
In general, the seller was cooperative and polite hence I agreed to £300. Let's hope the car is worth it :)
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So you still have the car? I know you've already noted what needs replacing and who is doing it, is the garages actions underway?
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Yes I still have the car. I have yet to start the repair work on the car. The most pressing issue is the exhaust right now which I will try to sort out by next week.
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let me know how you get on straightening out that kink as thats what mine now looks like (albeit on the other side)
JJ
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Wouldn't straightening out the kink require some manipulation via heat to straighten it out until the two lengths are the same on either side?
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Not in all cases....that's where using porta power equipment
to 'pull' the part into line/shape are used.
Personally I'd see if parts of the chassis rails are listed, and if
so, cut n replace if necessary where possible.