forfour.co.uk
Forum => General Smart Chat => Topic started by: minimayhem on November 17, 2016, 04:27:24 PM
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So I've narrowed the search down to three different cars. All are within my very small budget and have decent miles. The question is, the 1.1 or the 1.3?
This is a question of what will return the most MPG. Thinking about it, I probably drive 70/30 city driving/motorway. That may shift, but by how much I'm not sure. Worse case, 50/50.
What's the better option in this scenario?
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The gearbox will have an influence on MPG as the manual is a 5 speed and the semi-automatic is a 6 speed.
From a 1.3 Semi-Automatic perspective, this combination is lovely. Nice and quiet below 3000 and then when above that, it howls as it is a VVT engine. Around town (unless someone can correct me on this), the 1.3 is probably going to be no different in terms of drive to the 1.1 although the 1.1 is going to be a little more fuel efficient but not overly so I would have thought.
On the motorway, the 1.3 has a lot of pull and will quite happily shuttle you around at national speed. The 1.1 will be louder (it is a 3 cylinder engine over the 4 cylinder 1.3) but it is more characterful and isn't less capable. I can average about 50mpg on a calm drive in town and on a motorway.
Of course, the MPG figure also comes down to how you drive it. ;)
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Hello,
Both engines are absolute crackers, so do not dismiss a car based on engine alone. I would just get the best kept, highest spec car i can find regardless of the engine it has.
Fuel economy mostly depends on driving style and road conditions, and these two cars would return very similar MPG when driven in the same manner.
If you are a patient driver,and rarely go over 55mph, the 1.1 will return the best fuel economy.
If however you constantly need most of those 75hp that the 1.1 has to offer than the 1.3 may be better suited with it's slightly longer gear ratios and extra power reserve, so you don't have to rev it as hard to get up to speed.
Fuel economy goes down when revs go up, because pumping losses are greatest then. Drive with moderately low revs,large throttle angles and use the car's momentum, anticipate traffic and use engine braking and coasting to slow yourself down in advance.
Also, the wheels you have play a huge role in fuel economy, 14" wheels return the best MPG, while the 17" ones make the car very harsh, the steering heavier and it tends to follow any imperfections in the road surface or change in camber, increase fuel consumption a lot but make the car look sexy.
So the most MPG would be achieved with a small engine, small wheels, and cruising at 2500rpm. Also, the AMT has 6 speeds, so a 1.1 AMT with 14" wheels should be great for cruising.
What cars were you thinking of, specifically (links?)
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Brilliant responses, thanks all! And fast. Just makes me want the car even more. I'm a car nut and love being part of a community and attending meets.
The car will absolutely be a manual. I do all my own maintenance and will give the car a complete service upon purchase to try and eek the most out of it.
I was looking at these:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201605244261701?onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&model=FORFOUR&radius=1500&make=SMART&advertising-location=at_cars&sort=distance&postcode=kt89bt&year-to=2007&page=1
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2004-SMART-FORFOUR-PULSE-SILVER-ONLY-62-000-MILES-2-OWNERS-/252637520960?hash=item3ad25ea440:g:nN8AAOSwal5YDPCC
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201610259111251?make=SMART&sort=distance&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&model=FORFOUR&advertising-location=at_cars&radius=1500&year-to=2007&postcode=kt89bt&page=2
I really like the Passion to be honest, the sun-roof sounds great, but in reality it shouldnt be a deal clincher. The LPG conversion has heated seats and seems the highest spec of the lot, but equally does not have the 1.3.
The 1.1 Pulse I'm slightly weary off, as the MOT advisory is on a wheel bearing, which in itself doesnt look to hard or costly to fix, but is a pain. It is however peanuts, but also the lowest spec.
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Can't speak about the 1.3 but my 1.1 is an absolute fracker! :)
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The LPG conversion has heated seats and seems the highest spec of the lot, but equally does not have the 1.3.
I've avoid a LPG converted car... they have been known to have issues but then again... leather seats...
All Passions had the Panoramic roof and Air Condition so should be better specced than a Pulse but the 1.1 Pulse appears to have the better specification than the 1.3 Passion (?!!). If you don't mind retrofitting parts, the trim level won't make that much difference in all honesty. If it is the rear bearing, this is pretty simple. If it is the front, that is more complex as you might imagine.
The 1.1 Pulse seems to need the headlamps cleaning I think but that is not much in the grand scheme of things.
I'd go for (and did get) the 1.3 engine because it was quieter which sounds odd but heck, if I needed it to be louder, go past 3000 RPM ;)
I'd give them all a try.
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It is however peanuts, but also the lowest spec.
They are all interesting, i'm most tented by the blue and silver 1.1 pulse with the comfort pack (because that's what i miss on mine), and it also has the multi function steering wheel which is hard to retrofit. It might seem low spec but is actually a gem, it's much easyer to add the other extras, but not the ones it has.
Mine had a rumbly wheel bearing since i got it second hand in 2008 and only failed last winter, after driving with the wheels seized (the high temps finally got to it). If that's it's only fault i'd go for that.
The 1.3 also looks good although be careful with that ones tracking, looks as if it had an accident and the rear axle may have suffered. Other than that, i have a pulse 1.3 so what's not to love about it?
The LPG conversion may be hazardous, but if you have experience with those and see that it's working fine, then that should be dirt cheap to run. However valve clearance is something most of these cars never got checked anyway, and i think LPG compounds this issue, so the 1.1 engine may be shot, or on it's way out.
As we know and love forfours i think neither will disappoint, but better safe than sorry :)
PS It seems we're just as excited as you :D You get a new car, we get a new friend :D
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How can you guys tell that the pulse has a higher spec than the passion?
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have you defo ruled out the diesel??
that engine is rock hard!!
plus stick with passion spec to get the panoramic roof
pure
pulse
passion
...are the increasing spec levels
JJ
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How can you guys tell that the pulse has a higher spec than the passion?
The multi-function steering wheel and armrest were only a cost add on I think. The roof on a Pulse is a solid plastic affair whereas on the Passion, as Problemchild says, is a panoramic roof. I went to the trouble of retrofitting a MF wheel to my car (amongst other things) so as I say, retrofitting these types of things make the trim level almost moot.
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Ah I see! I have ruled out the derv, I'm really against dervs and decided never to own one. But I dont judge anyone that does!!!
Ah now I'm torn. The multi function steering wheel looks cool, but so does the panoramic room.. Arg!
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ok - without telling you what to buy this is what you should buy haha
1.3 or 1.5 passion spec
externally look out for auto headlamps/wipers and to get the benefit from the styling then 2 tone and panoramic roof
internally look for radio6 (double sized), sub woofer under the passenger seat (should come with the radio6), arm rest, electric windows front and rear and m/f steering wheel and the tumbling rear seats
generally look for stippling of the metal safety shell ahead of the rear wheels, leaking rear shocks, noisy wheel bearings
the thing about these cars is that no one understands them so spec does not change the price much
always wait for the one you want - it will pop up soon
and travel - its worth it ;)
feel free to tell me to poke off haha
JJ
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-SMART-FORFOUR-HATCHBACK-1-5-Passion-PANORAMIC-GLASS-ROOF-/162247018729?hash=item25c6ad08e9:g:-PIAAOSwUEVYCHDI
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-SMART-FORFOUR-HATCHBACK-1-3-Passion-5dr-/371746901710?hash=item568dd78ece:g:Md8AAOSwmfhX6ULA
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smart-car-ForFour-1-3-2005-QUICK-SALE/272451564164?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D38661%26meid%3D5bd06ebe822e4fec8204b87bbde1ab12%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D371746901710
JJ
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having had a 1.1 and clocked up 60,000 miles in the 5 years i owned it i have to say it was the best of the 3 cars iv owned... you could thrash the nuts of it and it would still give me 420 miles to a tank. full of character and a peppy, eager little engine, always wanting to go. imagine it like a hyper little dog wanting the ball, once you throw the ball it runs and loves you for it.
i brought my sister and her uni mate back to leeds from farnham with a stop off in london, boot full and the seats folded (sisters mate sat in the back on the 'single' seat), all seamed more than comfortable. and then a trip from leeds to dillingen an der donau, a journey of about 850 miles 1 way, again 3 passangers (myself, dad and sister), boot full of luggage, and even some in the back seats, and my sister was still comfortable. even had enough grunt to get to 110 on the autobhan, basically maxed it out with a full car.
i now have a 1.5 SB3, a 1.5 engine with the rare brabus tuning pack, and that is more laid back. plenty of go with it having 120 bhp instead of 109 bhp.
the blue and gray 1.3 looks the part, the titanium trid is uncommon, but id be asking why the owner wants a quick sale? is there anything wrong with it as there isnt much info in the description. you may be able to get it cheaper as the owner wants a quick sale
the blue and silver 1.3 is from a dealer so it should be in good condition... it may come with a warranty
the black 1.5 has the toys... and is cheaper than the 1.3 blue and silver
if your willing to travel then you can get a good deal.
i bought my 1.1 from a garage in Birmingham. i was in leamington spa on a training course and managed to get away early, saw the car, paid the deposit, came back to leeds and picked the car up that same weekend.
my SB3, i went to view it at a garage in Grimsby, spoke to the then owner of the car (story for another day) and then got him to deliver the car to me about a month later, in fact it would be around this time last year i got it
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I've been reading a lot of your posts about your 1.1, good read!
So after consideration, my plan is as follows.
Spoke with her ladyship. She told me I was an idiot for even considering the panoramic roof as a factor, in much less but far harsher words.
So. The price of the 1.1 is lower, has the MF steering wheel, cup holder (I have terrible MPC (miles per coffee) so that will get used a lot. I also has less miles and apart from the wheel bearing advisory on the MOT, seems in good nick. I've had to clean headlights before and thankfully have a rotary buffer so no worries there.
The smaller engine size should prove useful for MPG when I'm driving around London and the hills by the rents.
I uh, also much prefer the colour scheme and rims. These cars are super cute looking!
Thinking about it, I wont be going on long distance journeys often, so I'm not sure the 1.3 makes as much sense in the medium term.
So, I'll be viewing the 1.1 on Saturday with a mind of buying it, providing the condition is good. If its not, then the 1.3 is only 30 minutes away. If neither of them are good, then ah well, I'll keep looking.
Main plan is to give it a complete service of all consumables, install a cruise control unit and a improve the sound system, if required. Not sure what the stock is like.
Can't wait, very excited :)
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pan roof is the best part of the car!!!
iv had 3 cars with panoramic roofs and wouldn't have a car without one now, it makes the car feel bigger than it actually is. the panoramic roof is fixed and doesnt open, if you have the sun roof option then it opens, but thats easily noticed by looking at the roof, the pan roof will be the same all over where the one with the sunroof will have 2 guide rails for the sliding mechanism. again the sunroof was an uncommon optional extra.
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My pennies worth....
The other way to recognise either a panaoramic roof v sliding/opening
roof is from the inside. You'll be able to see out of the entire roof
in the panoramic.
Do note that the panoramic (as well as the sliding) have semi opaque
blinds that you can open/close manually...so if you don't like too
much light coming in, then keep them closed.
And as for your decision to fit cruise control....
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the only one that you should consider
fitting (it plugs in to the OBD2 port) is or was obtainable from
MDC (MisterDotCom) of Germany.
If anyone knows any better on this please do come forward and
speak your piece, ok.
Sound system upgrades are covered in the ICE section (child board)
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Main plan is to give it a complete service of all consumables, install a cruise control unit and a improve the sound system, if required. Not sure what the stock is like.
I looked into getting cruise control for my 454 but, as CrazyG says, the only company that made one was MDC. They are on a certain internet auction site but they are gearbox specific so if you do go for one, watch out for that. In the end, I ditched the idea, they are quite expensive and doesn't add to the experience of driving the car.
The sound system... mine originally came with a Radio 5 and the sound upgrade (the subwoofer + rear speakers) and its fine for my purposes, nice all around sound. I've since put in a COMAND sat-nav unit into mine.
pan roof is the best part of the car!!!
Certainly is. Every car I've sat in the back of since has been akin to sitting in a cave. Up front, it doesn't make that much difference but yes, the rear passengers will appreciate it.
So. The price of the 1.1 is lower, has the MF steering wheel, cup holder (I have terrible MPC (miles per coffee) so that will get used a lot
Taking another look at the pictures of the 1.1 Pulse, it appears to have all around electric windows as well. The only thing it is missing is the dash pods, which aren't essential from one point of view (one of them is a clock) and relatively important from another (the other is a coolant temperature gauge) but retrofitting these isn't that big a deal, just fiddly.
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Is there a way to see from the piccies if it has the sound upgrade?
Just want to say thanks for your help all so far, really appreciate it.
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The sound upgrade is not obvious and there isn't a good shot of the passenger seat but I can see what I think is the fascia for the subwoofer at the front undeneath the seat. Close up examination of it will be needed. If it is factory, a VIN number check will tell the specification.
Oh, and it has electric wing mirrors as well (which will be heated I think?) so yeah, goes to show someone specced up that Smart. ;)
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I believe that some insurers (but not all) ask to see the LPG conversion certificate, so check if this is with the paperwork if you look at the 1.1 LPG. Mine is insured with Swinton and they were fine about the LPG conversion and didn't want to see the certificate. Although it is only a 1.1, the car should still feel as if it has plenty of poke and be fun to drive. If the one you try feels down on power, it may be that the LPG has contributed to valve seat recession; if so, walk away. While the head can be removed and the valve seats done, it will cost and will only be worth doing if you are planning to keep it and do lots of miles. If the car is OK and you buy it, be aware that the valve clearances are due to be checked/adjusted at 60,000 miles and it is vital that you do this with an LPG car. Good luck!
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Ah I totally forgot about the valve clearances. Is that a difficult job to do for a DIY mechanic?
I've never actually done anything like that, but have worked around the valves before, but it sounds interesting. Cant think its to hard to do?
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Sorry I can't advise re adjusting the clearance's, but what
I will say to back up other members comment's about LPG is,
is that any conversion to LPG is usually more trouble than it's
worth....unless it was a factory fit, or fitted in Germany..
There the fitting standards and certification etc is far and beyond
those of the UK. LPG was was never a factory fit option.
I think that says it all really.
And I personally have seen 3 LPG converted 454's pass thru
S2smarts workshop....all with issues that could only be down
to the LPG. These could not be resolved as they're not LPG qualified.
All had previously been to LPG 'specialists'...and even they
couldn't fix them and said it wasn't an LPG problem !
2 had the stuff removed by 'specialists' eventually...at a cost,
and were more or less ok after that.
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I think you need a spring clamp for the valve springs, a way to accurately measure the valve clearance and then to order the appropiate thickness pills/shims to take up the difference.
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when you say your missus said the panoramic roof shouldn't even be a consideration was she meaning that of course it should have one or that getting one with one is bonkers??
if the latter then i'm afraid she is wrong :P (not that i'd be brave enought to say that to any female)
(https://preview.netcarshow.com/Smart-forfour-2004-1024-2a.jpg)
(http://en.usedcarshongkong.com/upload/2013/08/23/12/1257149166.jpg)
JJ
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To quote R.Kelly "My mind is telling me no, but my body, my body is telling me yes".
I mean seriously I do want the panoramic roof, I really do. It looks great actually, especially in that top picture (are those pillows SMART branded?!?!) but my mind is saying the Pulse is so cheap, with such low miles, with the other extras and potentially in good nick so...I have to say no!
And yet will always wonder...what if....
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are those pillows SMART branded?!?!
You mean the picture ProblemChild posted? I don't see any pillows though some 454's did come with them for the back seats. I don't think they were Smart branded with a logo but use the same material as the seats do. I would like a custom set for mine when the interior is re-trimmed.
And yet will always wonder...what if....
I have seen panoramic roofs for sale before but to fit them requires more than just the roof as the internal trim around it is also different though I doubt they is actually that hard to get hold of - the roof itself is rarer because it is quite large, even in the 2 sections.
I'd still stick with your plan but go and see both first. If the roof really does make that much of a difference then you'll know.
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you want to make sure the rear seat tumbles
it has the handle in the boot that rotates to slide the seats back and forth and then the bar in the middle bottom to lift the seat and tumble it
also that one doesn't have front fogs (so has the milky white indicator units)
how about...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smart-Forfour-2005-1-1-petrol-Low-mileage-glass-roof-Mot-04-2017-/262717597337?hash=item3d2b306699:g:Dg0AAOSw44BYKJhC
or (note the tumble handle in the boot pic)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2004-54-SMART-FORFOUR-1-1-PASSION-RHD-5D-74BHP-/262722761731?hash=item3d2b7f3403:g:t6gAAOSw5cNYLYh-
or
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMART-FORFOUR-Passion-/142180367156?hash=item211a9c3b34:g:s3UAAOSw5cNYK17w
or
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-05-SMART-FORFOUR-1-1-PASSION-RHD-5D-74-BHP-/112184618369?hash=item1a1eb96d81:g:O7oAAOSwA3dYI9Px
or
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smart-forfour-1-1-Passion-5DR-2006-42000MLS-FULL-GLASS-ROOF-/302040109160?hash=item4652fe5068:g:orMAAOSwU-pXra-F
or
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-SMART-FORFOUR-HATCHBACK-1-5-Passion-PANORAMIC-GLASS-ROOF-/162247018729?hash=item25c6ad08e9:g:-PIAAOSwUEVYCHDI
....i guess what i'm saying is that there are a lot of forfours around and its a buyers market so wait until you find the one that ticks all the boxes
JJ
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It really is a buyers market. I'm gobsmacked these cars are so cheap. It really doesn't make any sense, there's no documented known faults, they seem to last ages, have low tax and very economical. I guess it just goes to show that marketing power really is everything. But that is good news for us in the know.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow. Thank you for mentioning the lever at the back, I'll look out for that.
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the thing is if you were looking for a small hatch you'd go on autotrader and prob only search for makes you know - ford, vauxhall, kia, vw, etc
never would you search smart
its amazing how many members say they only bought one as they saw it on the forecourt and thought it looked good but didn't know what it was
its even more strange given the spec of the cars
good luck
don't jump if its not exactly what you want
by next weekend there will still be plenty of choice
JJ
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I noticed even today that a few more vehicles went up for sale. All within my local area, so I now have 5 cars to check out tomorrow.
I never would have thought of searching SMART, but my dad has had a fortwo since gen 1 and thought it might not hurt to look. Seems it hasn't!
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Re the rear seat....rotate handle at the back to the right
and slide the seat forward, then between the split rears
press the detent on the 'rollers' and the seat backs should
fold forward and down. Then lift the cross bar handle at
floor level at the rear of the seat base and lift the base up.
Tumble it forward....you may have to move one or both of
the front seats forward a fraction to allow the rear seat to
tilt forward completely....
Then secure the tilted rear seat by using the red strap which
will now be at the top right corner....the clip on the strap
clips round the headrest pillar...and it can be tensioned.
(You can possibly move the front seats back a fraction once
the rear seat is tumbled...but before you tension the strap)
Obviously, to revert the rear seat you unclip the strap,
tumble the seat base down...and gently slam it into place
to secure the twin peg locks. Then use the control between
the rears to allow the seat backs to be lifted back into position.
They are multi positional. Finally slide the seat base back via
the handle to the lower right rear to whatever position you wish.
As for the 'pillows/cushions'...yes, these were available from Smart
as an optional extra....colour coded to the relevant interior....not
that they do much. You could get/make your own...but not in the
same fabric though.
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Hi minimayhem ..... whichever forfour you chose I'm sure you'll love it ,
Ive had mine ( a 1.3 Passion ) for 12 years and I have never once thought of changing it , and I still love the looks ( in my opinion it's way better looking than the new version ) .
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Another thumbs up for the 1.3.
Had mine a couple of years now very happy with it. Been up and down the country in it a few times as well. Plenty of good advice in the thread already so I'll just say have fun searching. :)
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Well, bought it.
Went for the 1.1 in the end. Having a look around it, and in comparison to the Passions, I felt that the extra bits it had made it a more usable and enjoyable car for me. The light the Passions had with the panoramic roof was incredible, but not enough to sway me. Equally although the 1.3 was nippier, I didn't feel as though it was fast enough over the 1.1 to sway my thinking towards the 1.1, if that makes sense. I was able to test the 1.1 on a dual-carriage way so got up some decent speed, and thanks to the long gearings it does hold its place well!
Anywayz, pic is attached next to its sibling, my XF.
(http://i.imgur.com/k5IMFxK.jpg)
Seems like someone loaded up on optional extras, has MFSW, comfort pack, radio 6, the same alloys as my dads 450 (didnt see those listed as an optional extra though, weird!) and thankfully foldable seats.
But yeah, very impressed with the car. Quick question though, I was under the impression the forfours didnt have a trip computer with MPG calculation - mine seems to, is it not reliable enough to be used as gospal?
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looks REALLY nice - does it have the subwoofer under the passenger seat??
wheels look like cruiselines http://www.forfour.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=77.0
the MFSW comes with the trip computer so you can flip through the different bits
gives you some other settings when stopped
JJ
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It does indeed have the sub, very surprised at the sound system, very impressive.
She is quite dirty, and could benefit from a full polish to smooth out swirl marks. Should come up quite nicely.
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Hi minimayhem ..... nice car you found yourself ( with a nice spec ) Happy forfouring ;) :)
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i used to fill my 1.1 with shell v-power and when i would fill with the normal stuff the performance felt different... so id recommend the high octane stuff over the regular fuel
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defo use shell no matter what - its invariably the same £ as supermarket fuel, cleans nicely, get money off vouchers
JJ
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Save your cash it's not needed ,V Power on 1.1 :P are you sure you was not going down hill or had the wind behind you it's not a performance car so regular petrol will be fine.
High octane fuel is better but not necessary on this model.
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I would also have to agree with JJ, SHELL in my opinion the best brand to use but not V power to save some cash on the smaller engines I always use V Power on my Brabus.
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Congrats on getting the 1.1. Yeah, they are Cruiselines.
Quick question though, I was under the impression the forfours didnt have a trip computer with MPG calculation - mine seems to, is it not reliable enough to be used as gospal?
If they come with the dual window speedometer, then they do. Speaking from experience, they do tend to be a bit optimistic, especially the miles to empty function.
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Great Choice of car! I to run both my 1.1 and Brab on Shell V power. The multifunctioning computer mpg thingy on my Brab is useless. I used to bother working out the miles to the gallon on both my cars mathematically but now I can't be bothered! When it needs petrol I put some in the tank.
Enjoy forfouring... they really are great little underrated cars which are a doddle to maintain and good fun to drive and own. ;)
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And talking of mpg.....
Check that your's isn't or doesn't suffer from the fuel
gauge problem...where it flashes when full..and then
gives differing levels at odd times/days..or even runs
out of fuel when it shows 1/2 a tank !
It's not a show stopper, and it's easily fixed...there is a
Guide on how to resolve that...you must have a fine
tipped soldering iron and the determination to do it.
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Just a quick thought to add to this thread. I think it is worth noting just how good these cars are in that the total number of manufacturers recalls is... one! That was in the very early days and was to do with the rear seat latch(es). That was it! Even now, after 10, 11, 12 years most issues are simply to do with normal wear and tear that you could get with any car. Indeed, I get Auto Express magazine each week and the number of recalls reported on many more modern cars is quite shocking! So, I believe that the forfour was very well engineered and 'sorted' from the off. ;)
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So right Brabs, but there are a few things that could have been better like the dipped candles/lights, the sunvisor is far to short and the fuel gauge problem (that can be fixed) but for the rest they are fantastic cars.
Greetings.
Eddie.
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And not to forget the Horn is pathetic.
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id say the horn is comical... almost like roadrunners meep meep
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Not forgetting the armrest in my Brabus trying to change gear while its down is a pain but very comfortable on a long run and putting the rear windows down you need to be double jointed.