forfour.co.uk
Forum => General Smart Chat => Topic started by: Brabs on August 22, 2016, 08:29:22 PM
-
Well, as my 1.1 Passion is now over 11 years old, and has done just over 80,000 miles I thought that a gearbox oil refresh was in order. Although this doesn't seem to be listed as a service item I thought that as I intend to keep the car for some considerable time it couldn't do any harm. Draining was easy, after moving the stay bar but the refill plug is a bit of a PITA. Still, a bit of tubing weaving down through the engine bay did the trick. The old oil didn't seem too bad but and I know that there is the potential placebo effect, the change does see a tad smoother. 😏
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a555/BrabsSmarts/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpspxvmzxep.jpeg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/BrabsSmarts/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpspxvmzxep.jpeg.html)
-
nice to see you used genuine stuff from Mercedes
-
I know, I know... and some will possibly say that I could have got a cheaper alternative, which may well have done the job... but once every 10 years or so eh? ;)
-
Cheaper to buy genuine as you know its the right stuff and grade for what you need
-
I have to do the same oil changing with my manual 1.5 CDi. Drain plug is on the bottom of gearbox and fill plug is on the top? I have been oiling shifter steel links few days ago and think I saw something like steel plug there.
-
Oil filler is not at the top as it is a measure of the level as well. It's about half way up... ish.
-
Would it be easier to remove battery/airbox and access it from the top? I can see in the picture you haven't removed battery.
Any advice how drain off all oil from gearbox? I guess to put in exactly as much as was pulled out of gearbox.
What's more. There's lots of info about adding tiny bit of that oil to gearbox, which should helps reducing friction in gearbox. Any advice, any info, idea about product?
(http://dxkdul4cprxwx.cloudfront.net/6edaa37262ee48b2a9965702f01e0349_orig.jpg)
-
Well, I wouldn't add any additives to the oil. Thing is... yes you want to reduce friction by a certain amount... but the synchro rings need a certain amount of friction to function. Just put in what the manufacturer recommends. Why should we presume to know better. They spend millions on R&D after all. ;)
-
I'm not car mechanic and know rather just little about engines and manual transmission. Been talking with few really professional mechanics today and every of them recommend adding something to diesel tank. There is no fluid that can reduce friction dramatically when there is already high quality synthetic oil on parts A and B.
My problem is... Manufacturing is about making money. Engineering is about increasing probability of event so it is closest to 1. Sometimes those two things just don't connect at very end.
-
I did use some of thet liquimoly gear box aditive in my SB3. Couldn't notice any different untill i replace the oil again when i replaced the clutch. It feels less smooth than before when it had the gear oil aditive
-
MOTUL GEAR 300 75W-90 is perfect for gearbox and this is what I use in mine. Plus not long ago added 50mL of Ceratec to gearbox. It works smooth as silk.
Whatever there was inside gearbox, was nasty. That oil was just black and stinked much different than fresh gearbox oil. Too many black bits in it.
It's best to replace gearbox oil in 30-40kkm intervals or about every 25k miles. It's completely nonse to not do that. It is as easy as engine oil replacement. I am gonna do it every third engine oil replacement (25k miles). Asked too many highly experienced mechanics. They all told me it's stupid not change gearbox oil at all and minimum interval is 50kkm...
Remember there is no filter for gearbox oil like for engine oil. All sh#t flows there freely.
-
There are several key differences between gearbox and engine lubrication that allow much more extended drain intervals in gearbox applications.
For one thing, the gearbox is sealed and no combustion occurs, thus no combustion contaminants reach the oil, and there's also no dilution from excess fuel enrichment. Additives (and the function they provide) also differ, and lubrication is not provided by oil pressure, the oil slushes around as the gears turn inside the gearbox partly submerged and they pick up oil with each rotation.
Engines need an oil filter because tolerances are smaller, you have tight passage ways and oil is under pressure. Combustion leftovers also contaminate the oil and make it turn acidic, in turn depleting your base reserves.
While i agree that never changing your gearbox oil can't be good, Mercedes did not specify it's good for the whole service life in vain.
I've changed my gearbox oil because i had a weeping driveshaft seal and when i changed that i refreshed the oil. I'll also change it again when i replace the clutch, but at 245.000kms the original one is still ok so it'll have to wait.
Changing it at set intervals would be a bit of a waste for me, oil is not a renewable resource and neither is my time :)
-
I have to agree 100% with all that you said there Alex ;)
-
Small different sizes steel particles that I've found in my oil are acummulating in every gearbox. Thanks to friction, you don't need to grind every gear day by day.
If you're happy that steel bits are eating your gears and bearings I am pleased with that. Every good mechanic told me that not changing gearbox oil every 50kkm or more often is just stupid.
Gearbox oil gets hot thanks to friction. Gearbox oil lost it's viscosity because getting hot and cold again, again and again.
What's most funny is fact, that gearbox oil level needs topping up so level must be checked periodically. Ans those steel particles from sychro rings. Yea, what for changing gearbox oil.
So called by manufacturers 'Stands for lifetime of vehicle' means guarantee time. Manufacturer don't care about anything else. They care about selling next new car.
LOL, gearbox oil is CHEAP, why not even top it up? FORFOUR gearbox volume is about 2.2L. After warming up I drained 1.6L.
Ans this is my gearbox oil after 12 years and 100k miles. With TONS of steel bits in it. Enjoy what's in your gearbox. Viscosity of water.
-
Which gearbox oil to buy for the getrag 5 speed in diesel and how many liters?
-
75W-90 oil, you need 2 liters all together.
Don't go with thicker like 75W-140. Will lost fuel efficiency.
I refilled with Motul 300 75W-90. That sh#tty oil Merc recommends is crap. Go with Motul. MUCH smoother gearbox. Much easier gears changing. I can compare results only to what I had before - diluted black oil with steel particles in it. What can I say. Only better it is every way. Worth every penny.
I am not Motul seller. I like quality products. Castrol is far from quality oil. Check web for opinions.
-
Not a big motul support in Germany. Liqui moly however...
-
So go with Liqui Moly. Make sure any 75W-90 oil you use is API-GL4 compatible.
"API Category GL-4 designates the type of service characteristic of spiral-bevel and hypoid gears in automotive axles operated under moderate speeds and loads. These oils may be used in selected manual transmission and transaxle applications.
API Category GL-5 designates the type of service characteristic of gears, particularly hypoids in automotive axles under high-speed and/or low-speed, high-torque conditions. Lubricants qualified under U.S. Military specification MIL-L-2105D (formerly MIL-L-2015C), MIL-PRF-2105E and SAE J2360 satisfy the requirements of the API GL-5 service designation."
Motul 300 75W-90 is API-GL4 compatible and API-GL5. Try to find similar from Liqui Moly.
-
That sh#tty oil Merc recommends is crap.
in what way is the stuff mercedes sell crap?
iv used it twice and had no issues with it!
-
Can’t agree that Castrol oils are crap. That statement is based on nothing! They are a world leading brand of lubricants sponsoring amongst others the Renault and McLaren F1 teams. They have an over 100 year history of producing lubricants. ;)
-
..... I can compare results only to what I had before - diluted black oil with steel particles in it....
And whose oil was it that you had in your gearbox ?
Who is to say that the previous owner (or garage that serviced it used
the best/proper oil for the car ? It could have been any old stuff they
had lying around.)
So I agree with the comments of mr singh and Brabs.
And I believe in facts...not the 'opinions' of unqualified fools on the Internet.
-
That sh#tty oil Merc recommends is crap.
in what way is the stuff mercedes sell crap?
iv used it twice and had no issues with it!
You can use vegetable oil in gearbox and have no issues with it. My problem with Merc is that they only approve one oil from one manufacturer for 454 gearbox? Hahaha, seriously? Can't stop laughing. Any MB-Approval on oil is only grade agreement between companies.
API and SAE standards are something more.
I wonder what MB approval code has vegetable oil from Tesco.
-
That sh#tty oil Merc recommends is crap.
in what way is the stuff mercedes sell crap?
iv used it twice and had no issues with it!
You can use vegetable oil in gearbox and have no issues with it. My problem with Merc is that they only approve one oil from one manufacturer for 454 gearbox? Hahaha, seriously? Can't stop laughing. Any MB-Approval on oil is only grade agreement between companies.
API and SAE standards are something more.
I wonder what MB approval code has vegetable oil from Tesco.
Really? Based on what information exactly?! :(
-
We're getting off track. Sure you can pour anything in the gearbox (engine or fuel tank for that matter), but you'll ruin it immediately.
GL4 oils contain additives that when squeezed between the synchros they form a sacrificial layer to prevent wear of the soft metals.
That's why you can't use strictly GL5 oils in ours, that has extreme pressure additives that actually wear out our synchros.
I think we all appreciate your excitement for your car, we all love forfours, just try to understand that we've been taking care of ours for quite a while now and without the proper maintenance they wouldn't be on the road anymore.
I think you had the misfortune of getting a tired example and that's why you're so adamant that factory stuff is crap, but look around, there's only ~12year old cars here, do you really think that if the factory fill was bad there'd still be any of them around? How come no manual gearboxes failed until now? Even if the oil wan't great, considering it has so little effect, why bother?Stick a magnet on the gearbox and invest the time and effort in what really matters in a car, like cool wheels or bigger speakers.
-
I hate to say it, but I agree 100% with everything that Alex has just said.
So please, let us keep to the original topic/thread, ok.
-
That's why you can't use strictly GL5 oils in ours, that has extreme pressure additives that actually wear out our synchros.
I will explain that for oil manufacturers. API standards GL4 and GL5 are in interest here.
GL4 don't attack non-ferrous metals: brass, bronze, aluminum, copper
GL5 high pressure additives will slightly oxidize non-ferrours metals: brass, bronze, aluminum, copper
TRUE
But...
If manufacturer says, that oil is compatible with GL4/GL5 it means, that this kind of oil contains metal deactivators to protect brass synchros and aluminum case. Wants more? How and why? Start studying inorganic chemistry like I do for years on my own. I don't have plans to drive ForFour to next 10 years. I am engineer and knows there is math behind everything. Only wants things to be clear about gearbox oil in ForFours.
Let's start dance.
Why those gearboxes still works? Manufacturer did good job. Does it make sense to keep same oil for hundred thousands miles and many years? Doesn't for me. That oil cooked so many times change it's own properties. After 200k miles not changing it, you can have there bucket of water. No difference. Why? Because additives. If you run clean mineral oil and filter/clean it off metals particles from time to time, you can run it forever. I run same CNC machine on pure mineral oil for years. It works every day on same pure mineral oil. Cuts heavily, tons of different materials daily. Machine only filters that oil. Constantly use same oil for years.
But gearbox oil contains sulphur additives which degrade thanks to heat and friction. This is reason to change that oil let's say every 50k miles.
New oil in gearbox provides easier gears changing, it's MUCH smoother (sound) when cruising on highways. It means less friction. It means better MPG. It's not theory. It's my experience with ForFour gearbox.
So it works for me. It's cheap and easy to change that oil.
Yea, engine oil is much more important because has more features than only lubricating like gearbox oil, but it doesn't change sense of replacing gearbox oil from time to time.