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[Hanszinderfaan]

Read elsewhere today that the government plans to introduce petrol Biofuel E10 by 2020. It appears we already have Biopetrol E5 available but here is the catch, some vehicles including some as recent as 2001 may not be suitable. Has anyone heard of this? I already use 98 Ron in preference to 95 unleaded. There followed a list of ten unsuitable vehicles with VW Golf at the top of the list. I was happy to see Smart wasn’t one of them but the list was limited to ten. Should we be worried?

[F4B]

In France we have 98, 95, and 95E10, I have always used 98.
We also have in some petrol station Bioethanol E85. Some people use 100% E85 instead of 98 or 95. A couple weeks ago I gradually started mixing 98 and E85 I am now 85% 98 and 15% E85, I haven't noticed any problem so far.

[Hanszinderfaan]

Also in that article I was reading was a reference to Bioethanol but it claims it creates more CO2 in the production of the fuel than the vehicle using it. Glad to hear that E10 seems to have no effect on the Smart engine at least it does sound encouraging, for the moment I will stick with 98RON.

[CrazyG]

The downside to E10 is that mpg is reduced.
This is due to lower detonation of the fuel mix...ergo less bang
which directly equates to less power produced.  The most obvious
solution to get power back is to give it more throttle which then
increases the amount of polution produced !
A case of 'swings and roundabouts' if ever there was.
And...apparently there are many evironmentalists who are not happy
with this and that are actually criticising the Government for deciding
to go ahead and introduce it. it is clear that the Government is trying
to show that it is doing the right thing by 'ticking the boxes' so to speak
but without any real proof or understanding of what it means. Typical !

I suppose they'll be rubbing their hands as the increase in fuel consumption
that this will mean equates to more tax money for them to waste on the
likes of the recently announced 'Cyber centre' the UK is going to build in
Kenya to 'tap into the African tech potential' !
What about the potential of UK school leavers that are tech savey and have
just as much potential Mrs.May ?

[Problemchild]

What happened in the aero world is that the govt agreed to a level of bio in the fuels and all the engine companies said it was ok but no one spoke to the sub system companies - rubber seals, fuel tanks, pipe work etc etc

Let’s hope there is no adverse effects on some of the car subsystems because of the change

JJ

[CrazyG]

Hate to say this JJ, but there are negatives to E10.....in exactly the areas
that you have stated 

E10 absorbs water, so metal fuel tanks will rust....
It also is corrosive to aluminium, so the TVA on Smarts is definitely going to be
a 'target'...in fact anything aluminium that E10 fuel comes into contact with WILL
breakdown/corrode if not in regualr use.  There are even some rubber/plastic
fuel lines that will breakdown and corrode. 

So...this is yet another example of inept and uninformed beaucrats passing
a Bill etc without consultation or understanding or investigation into the
outcome or affects of any such changes being forced upon the voting masses.
Or maybe they are/were aware, because if you think about it, it is about the
fastest way to forcibly make everyone buy into electric cars ! 

Oh, and if ANY cars are left unused for any substantial period of time with E10
fuel in them, then the most sensible thing to do will be to drain the fuel tank
and all the fuel lines,  and flush them through...but with what I cannot say
as I'm not up to speed on what will flush E10 out and leave zero residue.
PLUS...you can bet your ass that it will not be something easy to do for the
vast majority of people, that is for sure.

[mr singh]

you can check on gov.uk and it states that E10 will work with Smarts, and if you check it against Mitsubishi, it is the same as well

https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk/manufacturer/Smart

https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk/manufacturer/Mitsubishi

dont think that the Colt or the Forfour ever got direct injection on petrol engines.

but as mentioned E10 is less efficient that E5 or regular petrol as stated on evilution, so you will end up with less range and MPG figures.
https://www.evilution.co.uk/index.php?menu=info&mod=1606

i did consider converting mine to run on E85 (or a mix of up to 85% ethanol) but the company that made the kit stated that i would need bigger injectors for the 1.5, but it will work well with the 1.3.

[Problemchild]

Hate to say this JJ, but there are negatives to E10.....in exactly the areas
that you have stated 

E10 absorbs water, so metal fuel tanks will rust....
It also is corrosive to aluminium, so the TVA on Smarts is definitely going to be
a 'target'...in fact anything aluminium that E10 fuel comes into contact with WILL
breakdown/corrode if not in regualr use.  There are even some rubber/plastic
fuel lines that will breakdown and corrode. 

So...this is yet another example of inept and uninformed beaucrats passing
a Bill etc without consultation or understanding or investigation into the
outcome or affects of any such changes being forced upon the voting masses.
Or maybe they are/were aware, because if you think about it, it is about the
fastest way to forcibly make everyone buy into electric cars ! 

Oh, and if ANY cars are left unused for any substantial period of time with E10
fuel in them, then the most sensible thing to do will be to drain the fuel tank
and all the fuel lines,  and flush them through...but with what I cannot say
as I'm not up to speed on what will flush E10 out and leave zero residue.
PLUS...you can bet your ass that it will not be something easy to do for the
vast majority of people, that is for sure.

But it’s already 5% ethanol so is that slight increase gonna cause the massive issues?

JJ

[CrazyG]

According to the RAC, AA, and other motoring bodies....doubling the Ethanol WILL.

[Problemchild]

But all smart engines shown to be ok

JJ

[CrazyG]

You misunderstand matey....
The Government website states that E10 is ok to use in the engines of all Smarts
as well for lots of other cars.
B U T.......
what it doesn't tell you or offer any advice or information about are all the other issues
that using the higher percentage E10 brings with it OVER and above the existing E5
that bodies like the AA etc have pointed out.

[Problemchild]

But merc will have okd the use yeah?

I understand what you are saying and I understand the hydroscopy issue but the RAC says

If you put E10 fuel in an incompatible car it will still run, but seals, plastics and metals may be damaged over longer periods as a result of bioethanol's corrosive properties. It is a hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere, leading to condensation in fuel tanks if the car remains unused for long periods of time.

Focussed on non compatible cars and merc have said the smart is compatible.

We had this on our aircraft fleet - engine manufacturers said bio fuels are ok so everyone was happy but the systems OEMs were all like woooooah - what about the seals and pipes and tanks

so I get it totally - but merc is saying it’s ok

JJ

[CrazyG]

Merc have ok'd it...sure they would...the engine runs ok, so what's the issue ?
By the time the fuel tanks and everything else have been 'eaten' through a good few
years will have passed, you won't be able to get any replacements, and everything
will be electric...they hope.
Nope...I really wouldn't believe them.

To put it into persepective, what about their (and VW's) 'cover up' with diesel emissions..
and where there is a massive ongoing 'class action' legal issue, and still the TV adverts
to owners  past and present to apply to be part of it.

[mr singh]

G, you do realise that the fuel tanks on the forfour are made of plastic?!?
the fuel pipes are, from memory, under the car also plastic, until they get to the engine (dont quote me on this)

if you and others are worried about the affects of E10 on certain components, start using premium (98+ RON) fuel

[Bari87]

CrazyG is 100% right.
But its even more simple.

With E10 you will have more fuel consumation for identical performamce since it haves less energy inside. So there is no economical point to use it.

For Brabus users not an option either.

For the typical N/A 454 it doesnt make a difference, rust will kill the car more efficiency and faster then any poor quality fuel inside.

P.S. FuelPump is not from.plastic

Best regards
Bari (with 100/102 octane inside)

i have changed the wording as the kind of language used, i felt was harsh and unsuitable. Mr Singh